One Last Hit | A Sobriety and Addiction Recovery Podcast

SPEAKER_02: What is happening,
ladies and gentlemen?

My name is Austin and welcome to
the One Last Hit podcast.

And I have a very special
episode for you today.

We are sitting down with Mr.

Jordan M.

Jordan.

What's going on, you beautiful
bastard?

What are you up to, man?

SPEAKER_01: Oh shit.

What's up, Daddy?

SPEAKER_02: So Jordan and I uh
we have uh sobriety dates that

are relatively close to one
another.

And and what's nice about that,
you know, is I think I met

Jordan when I had like a month
sober or something.

I think it was at that that
meeting at the uh the little

church there in Winter Park.

But um, man, he and I have just
been kind of on this journey

together for the last last
couple couple and some change

years.

And so I'm very excited.

But one thing I don't know about
Jordan is I've heard bits and

pieces of your story, man, but I
have not really dove into it.

And I'm I'm just like I'm just
stoked for it, man.

So uh if you're ready, I'm
ready, bro.

Let's get after it.

SPEAKER_01: Let's go.

SPEAKER_02: Let's cool.

Um, so uh where do we begin?

Tell me where where were you
born?

SPEAKER_01: Uh born in Fort
Lauderdale, Florida.

SPEAKER_02: Fort Lauderdale,
Florida.

Okay.

And did you spend like most of
your childhood there or or what

was it?

SPEAKER_00: I my family
relocated to the Daytona Beach

area when I was a baby, and we
lived a block from the ocean for

my formative years, 18 years of
my life.

Okay, was in Daytona.

SPEAKER_02: So what was what was
your early life like?

Were mom and dad married?

SPEAKER_00: They were at first.

They divorced when I was about
four, and dad moved uh about an

hour south of Daytona to
Titusville.

He had uh work opportunity that
uh that took him um down to

Titusville.

Uh so we saw dad, you know, on
weekends, usually every other,

but you know, dad coached uh my
little league team.

He was involved in uh my Boy
Scout troops.

So we we stuck we we got to see
dad a decent amount, um, but for

all intents and purposes, raised
by single mom.

Um childhood was was relatively
normal, you know.

I mean, with the I I guess with
the exception of the divorce um

and you know, shared parenthood
or shared shared homes, um,

shared custody rather, you know.

Um living in Daytona is is
pretty pretty boring.

You know, we get the the beach
is great for a while, but you

kind of get burnt out on that.

Um, or at least I I got burnt
out on the beach.

Um, you know, tourist season is
fun, you know, people coming

into town for any number of
events that Daytona still hosts,

uh, but for other 46 weeks out
of the year, it's a pretty

sleepy little quiet beach town.

Um but yeah, like I said, normal
childhood, man.

I played baseball, did Boy
Scouts, uh, took you know some

uh I took piano lessons.

Uh mom did a great job uh
raising us.

And you know, dad was as present
as he could be.

And um, for all intents and
purposes, I don't I don't know

that there was anything
realistically uh uh uh

contributing to my you know
needing to experiment with

chemicals as as a direct result
of anything that happened in

childhood.

Um all intents and purposes, it
was it was pretty pretty normal.

I don't know.

I mean I did well in school.

Um yeah, I mean I had had one
isolated incident from from

childhood that was uh
unfortunate.

You know, I had a uh family trip
up to Northern California where

my mom's side of the family was,
and uh an older cousin of mine

was um going through puberty and
I was still a little too young

to really know what that was all
about.

And and he he took advantage of
his curiosity with me and kind

of persuaded me to to to have to
do some of the stuff that that

Pubestive boys do um a little
earlier than I probably should

have been exposed to that kind
of stuff.

Um, you know, again, unfortunate
wasn't violent or or or or

anything like that, but it was
definitely manipulative and

coercive.

And you know, I I got to deal
with that later in life, got to

unpack that uh, you know,
through the process of of

dealing with with that.

But you know, out outside of
that, really, like it like for

all and it was pretty pretty
normal, uneventful, uh for the

most part until high school.

Things got things got wild in
high school.

SPEAKER_02: So well, I'm
curious.

Sorry to cut you off there.

A well, a somebody in Michigan
is really pissed at you for

calling living by the beach
boring.

Uh but B, I'm I'm curious when
you did unpack that later in

life, like what did that look
like?

Like what kind of conclusions on
how that might have affected you

did did you come to?

SPEAKER_01: I think the the most
revealing likely truth as a

result of that was subconscious
uh just in general.

Hang on, bud.

SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna pause it.

SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think the
most revealing uh truth about

that, you know, as far as uh how
it may have affected me, you

know, over the years, um mainly
just a general subconscious

distrust of men, uh skepticism
to be honest or vulnerable

around other men.

Um that may have been reinforced
by just the general relationship

between my father and I.

You know, dad came from a uh a
military family, grandpa was a

Vietnam uh Marine Corps vet, and
you know, so he was he was

definitely emotionally closed
off.

My father, I can I think I
remember seeing him cry twice in

my entire life.

Uh, you know, the the one time
for sure was at his father, my

grandfather's funeral.

You know, so dad was was was
pretty emotionally reserved.

So I think that I think that
reinforced that that um you know

that that uh that underlying
belief that came as a result of

you know, called a the uh
molestation, if you will, that

that men can't be trusted.

Um which probably reared its
way, you know manifested in in

my womanizing kind of
experiences throughout, you

know, uh throughout my my
drinking and the chemical use

and and even you know early
attempts at sobriety too, you

know, just seeking comfort from
from women uh because men can't

be trusted.

Um but yeah, that this the
situation from childhood was

suppressed until I actually was
in treatment uh for the first

and to date only time that I
went to treatment, but I was 18

or 19 years old, and the the
scenario came back as if it had

happened the day prior, and it
was full sensory awareness of

what had happened to the point
to where it was undeniable that

that situation had planned
played out from my childhood.

And you know, I made sure to
check in with my mother and

confirm that that uh that family
trip actually happened, and

she's like, Yeah, we were there
around that time, and there was

definitely a period of time
during that trip where you know

you guys wandered off to go.

I don't know if it was uh it was
some farmland, blueberry field

or something like that, you
know.

I was like, I think that's where
where when it went down.

Like, yeah, makes sense.

Um but I it was I guess I was
fortunate that it came up in the

in the environment that it did,
you know, because I got to talk

to therapists right away.

Uh, you know, and then it came
up later in inventory work, uh,

you know, obviously had a pretty
big resentment against my

cousin.

Um, but I I I do also feel that
I was fortunate I got to see

that that his lifestyle wasn't
exactly putting a whole lot of

gold stars in his corner.

So, you know, approaching it
from you know, he he probably

was on the receiving end of some
less than ideal behavior,

probably worse than than what he
you know he did, he did with me.

So uh, you know, I managed to
get to a place of compassion and

forgiveness for him, but you
know, I think it it it

definitely kept me from wanting
to be vulnerable with guys, you

know, peers, even uh probably
more peers than than than older

men, because I had you know I
had a good relationship with my

father.

Um, and you know, my cousin was
was not too too much older than

me, but you know, probably
probably affected my

relationships with with men of
my own age or similar age for

most of my life up until
recently.

SPEAKER_02: So no, that makes a
lot of sense.

And so at what age were you when
you first caught a buzz uh with

whatever substance that was on?

SPEAKER_00: Uh I guess 13 or 14.

13 or 14.

Yeah.

Alcohol was was first, and I can
remember it like it was

yesterday.

Tell me about it.

Uh buddy of mine who we were we
were playing music uh a fair

amount, I think originally
through through the church that

we were going to.

Um, but we were we were at his
his mom's house, and mom wasn't

home.

I don't remember whose idea it
was, but the the idea presented,

uh he had he knew of the liquor
captain.

So we we mixed up, we we caught
we got some Cokes from the the

pantry, right?

They weren't cold, which was not
the wisest choice to have our

first cocktail experience, but
uh we knew that rum and coke was

a thing.

So, you know, the coke was in
the pantry, so we poured out

some of the coke from the cans,
fill it back up with lukewarm

rum, and and had ourselves a few
rum and cokes.

And uh I mean talk about, you
know, uh I I know I've heard you

say, you know, it's it's like
the the the brief glimpse of of

quiet that you get when driving
through a rainstorm and you

drive under an overpass.

Uh I love that.

You know, I I I always describe
it as as feeling feeling as if a

headache I didn't even know that
I had was gone.

You know, uh it's uh I felt like
I was I was funny, I was

popular, I was attractive, you
know, all these other issues I

had with myself that I didn't
even know that I had were solved

in that moment.

And everything was funny.

Um, and my my the outlook on
life was was brighter than it

ever was, and I can't wait to do
this again and as often as I can

afford to get away with.

Um and it was all off of
lukewarm Rodman Coke at uh a

buddy of mine's house uh who
interestingly enough is is sober

now.

Um the writing was on the wall
for for both of us at that at

that young age.

Uh but yeah, alcohol was was the
first.

Cannabis wasn't too far beyond
that.

And it was another similar kind
of like, oh yeah, this is great,

you know.

Uh everything was funny.

Uh, didn't really care what
other people I mean, there was a

little bit of paranoia mixed in
because of the environment that

that that was the first
experience with cannabis was,

but uh otherwise it was like,
yeah, we're gonna do this as

often as possible for sure,
right?

SPEAKER_02: Man, unbelievable.

I remember being God, 14 and I
had started smoking weed, and

I'd I had watched Cheech and
Chong's up in smoke, you know,

stoned at a friend's house, but
I couldn't I couldn't pronounce

Cheech and Chong.

So I came home all stoned, and
my mom says, What were you

doing?

I said, watching a movie.

She said, What movie?

And I said, Ching Chong Chang.

And she knew exactly she knew
exactly what I was talking

about, man.

And from that moment, she's
like, Oh, this kid's going down

a bad road, man.

So so uh, you know, humble
beginnings, right?

A little rum and coke, a little,
a little weed.

Uh, where where where does it
go?

And this is like this is in
middle school, right?

SPEAKER_01: For you, yeah, like
years of middle school for sure,

the transition into high school,
you know.

SPEAKER_00: I managed to
straighten out for uh the better

part of a year in high school.

This this cute cheerleader who
was a year older than me caught

my attention, and she was all
about going to church.

And so I I followed in in those
footsteps there for a brief

period, but then it wasn't long
after that that I went back to

my my first true love.

And I it was probably led to the
demise of that relationship.

Um, you know, and and drinking
became far more frequent,

cannabis use far again, far more
frequent um throughout high

school, you know, like I I
barely got through high school

by the skin of my teeth, but you
know, I I'd already learned the

the rewards that came from from
meeting goals and accomplishing

things.

So, you know, I I didn't I
didn't fall too far behind

academically, um, but you know,
I did did just the bare minimum

to get through what I needed to
get through um to get through

school.

And I and my senior year was
probably when when things

started to look like, okay, this
this is gonna become a little

more repetitive and habitual
than I may have originally

intended it to be, but uh, but
we can have some fun with this,

you know.

Um I remember I I I was able to
buy beer uh from a couple of the

gas stations in Daytona Beach,
you know, at 16, 17 years old.

So I I remember I supplied uh I
supplied drinks for for high

school parties.

You know, we would go drinking
in the woods.

Um and you know, that probably
probably when I experienced my

first blackout, um, which I'm
sure was scary, but you know,

didn't didn't slow me down or
stop me.

Um I'm pretty sure I got cut off
at a at a high school keg party

at one point, which I don't
think that is supposed to

happen, but they were like, hey
man, you you paid five dollars

for that cup, and you've had far
more than your fair share of

five dollars worth of this keg
of natty light or whatever the

hell we're doing.

Um but yeah, there was there was
definitely, you know, the the

early signs of rearranging, you
know, what I thought the

trajectory of my life should
look like to accommodate the

lifestyle, you know, definitely
began to to show its symptoms uh

as I began to get closer to
finishing high school.

Um and then cocaine was
introduced, and uh the the

bottom kind of fell out there
pretty quick.

SPEAKER_02: Now we're talking.

Now we're talking.

So you you you barely graduate
high school.

What what happens at that point?

SPEAKER_00: Um I I was I've been
accepted to Florida State and

had ex uh was had even gotten so
far into that process as to have

gotten a roommate assigned, um,
and originally was thinking I

was gonna go to Tallahassee and
go to college.

Um but recognizing that that was
a big party school, and you

know, with with cocaine in the
equation now, you know, and my

my drinking habits taking me to
certain parts of town that I

didn't think I'd ever go to, um
and associating with people that

I otherwise wouldn't be
interested in spending time

with.

Um I uh I gave I gave sobriety a
shot right out of high school.

You know, I think my my first
attempt to to quit entirely was

was shortly after graduating
high school.

And I opted to stay in town uh
and go to community college

instead of go off to college.

But um, but I I think the the
writing was on the wall.

You know, I I feel a certain
amount of gratitude that, you

know, it it runs in my family,
this thing, you know, and so uh

I was I was given warnings that
that I might have it because of

genetics.

So, you know, after after a a
series of of unfortunate

outcomes as a result of drinking
and and using, um I I kind of

gave a little bit of credit
where credit was due and that I

might I might be what what my
parents had told me that I

probably was going to be, you
know, alcoholic drug addict the

whole nine.

Um so I you know I gave their
solution a shot.

Um started going, you know, went
to a few meetings, tried to see

what that was all about.

Um ultimately found that it that
it wasn't for me at the time,

and uh and and ran the
experiment again.

But you know, it was it it got
pretty bad pretty quick.

Uh and I my my first semester at
community college was wildly

unimpressive.

You know, uh the transcript from
that first semester is is not

anything worth being proud of.

And ironically enough, I
declared a criminal justice

major because they took this one
like I don't even remember the

the premise of this college
course, but it's it's a single

credit course designed to help
kids create a framework for

their their education.

And that's you know, they ask
you, put you through these big

surveys and ask you a bunch of
questions.

What are you good at?

What do you like?

What's important to you?

And at the end of it, they spit
out a short list of careers that

you should consider and the
subsequent academic paths to get

there.

And uh law enforcement was on
the list.

And I was like, all right, cool,
why not?

I had seen training day with
Denzel, and I was like, I get

down with that one for sure.

Uh like that, that, that, that,
that might work.

Let's see how this how this
might play out.

And uh I remember I had a class
that was like intro to

corrections at eight o'clock in
the morning, and I went to that

class a few times on no sleep,
uh, and was like, this this

seems problematic.

That uh learning about the
correction system by a former

corrections officer.

And and I'm I I I I can't seem
to talk without making my mouth

move.

And I'm I'm really tired, but I
also can't seem to, you know,

nonstop blinking.

Um so I I I voluntarily went to
treatment after one semester of

high school.

Um and that's how I ended up in
Orlando.

My I had a younger sister, she
was already in treatment at that

time because she was into she
was into some big girl, big girl

drugs.

And yeah, so she she found
herself in treatment um at 16 or

15 years old, maybe 14, uh,
somewhere around there.

So I was making trips over with
the family to go see her and

then going back home and going
and partying, and like like,

man, this is this doesn't quite
add up.

So I was like, maybe I'll give
treatment a shot, and then uh

ended up in treatment.

Um which, you know, was probably
saved my life, or at least, you

know, set me in the gave me a
real a real good separation from

chemicals for a period.

Sure.

The trick treatment center was
wacky, they're not around

anymore, but it was a wacky
treatment center.

Um not not at all, I mean, just
bastardize anything that looks

like 12-step recovery.

Uh it was not an appropriate
introduction to you know what

I've come to learn as being
appropriate and effective ways

to treat alcoholism addiction,
but um served its purpose, you

know.

That's where I that's where I
came to remember the incident

from childhood, and you know,
got my first opportunities to

address that therapeutically.

Um and I, you know, I I I stayed
I stayed clean for a few years

after that.

So, you know, it served, yeah.

Yeah, I was I was at one point I
was the I was in the never had a

legal jerk club.

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: Um was this in a
12-step fellowship?

Were you in a 12-step
fellowship?

SPEAKER_00: Okay, I was hanging
out, you know.

I was really participating, but
I was I was getting out friends.

I was I was a teenager, you
know, I was 19, 20, 21 years

old.

Um, there there wasn't there
weren't many other kids my age

at the time, you know, doing
doing that stuff, or at least

from what I could see, you know.

Uh there was one young person's
meeting and it met one night a

week, and it they weren't that
many young, that many, that

young people that went to it.

SPEAKER_02: So I'm curious what
your experience was at that

young I I got sober originally
at 22, so I at least have you

know some of that experience,
but I'm curious what yours was

at such a young age.

SPEAKER_00: I mean the the the
the fellowship that I did find

was was valuable.

I mean it and it was a a uh a
viable distraction from the

previous lifestyle, you know.

I mean, you know, we would do we
would we I remember we would go

to Denny's after the late night
meetings and hang out at Denny's

until two, three o'clock in the
morning.

Uh and at one point we were
like, we were like thinking it'd

be cool to take shots of maple
syrup, you know.

So like it was it wasn't quite
sober behavior, you know.

I mean it was it wasn't
drinking, but like it was like,

you know, we're flirting with
the flirting with the devil for

sure.

Um you know, but the the were
some of the relationships that I

made back then, you know, I
still have today, you know,

loosely kind of in touch with,
still kind of like to check in

on each other from time to time.

Um but it was tough to identify,
you know.

I mean, I I I I'd had
collectively a few months of of

bad experiences with drugs and
alcohol.

Um and in comparison to people
that had had decades, you know,

uh anytime somebody said I I
spilled more than you drank, I

was like, You're probably right,
you know, like I don't I don't I

don't know that I got my money's
worth on this thing yet, but

like, but like I very well might
have what what everybody else

here has.

Um, but I I I wasn't convinced,
you know, like I absolutely

wasn't convinced.

Um but it gave me a good taste,
you know.

It gave me a real good taste and
I knew where to go when things

got worse later, which they you
know inevitably did.

SPEAKER_02: So what was what was
your relapse like?

Like around that?

Well, how long did you get?

Three years?

Was it three years?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, three years,
three years uh based on my best

recollection.

Um, you know, I I met my I met
my son's mom.

So the the meeting that I
frequented most often was in a

strip mall, and a few doors down
from the strip mall was a

pizzeria that a lot of people
from the meeting would hang out

at before and after, and
sometimes during the meetings.

And uh pizzeria hired um they
they had cute waitresses across

the board as like a standard for
working there.

And uh I caught the affection
and attention of one of them and

we started hanging out.

Um we ended up we tried to play
house, uh, which ultimately was

unsuccessful.

But you know, shortly after you
know our third attempt of being

together, um, you know, we she
got pregnant, we got married,

moved in together, tried, tried
doing the whole thing, and I had

her convinced that I probably
wasn't a real alcoholic or drug

addict.

That was probably just a phase
from teenage years.

Um you know, we started to go
through our own little arm

difficulties within our
relationship, and we're seeing a

professional, and I had the
professional convinced that I

probably wasn't a real
alcoholic, a real drug addict.

So everybody co-signed running
the experiment again, you know.

Uh, so it was the summer of
gosh, that probably was 2009,

2010, something like that.

Uh 4th of July.

I remember we all went out with
a bunch of her friends that

drank normally, um, and a couple
of friends that I had made from

from going to meetings, but
mostly her friends.

And the plan was that I was
gonna drink with everybody on

4th of July.

And I did, and I picked up right
where I left off.

And uh I've got I've got a buddy
of mine from from uh from

recovery that that was there
that night.

He was like, yeah, it was it was
awful watching watching you do

that, you know, knowing that was
what was likely to come from it.

And um, and uh was off to the
races, you know.

She and I drank together.

Uh, she would she would drink,
we would drink together, but

then she would call it quits
around midnight, you know,

because we had a baby to take
care of the next day.

So she's like, I'm gonna get to
bed and be up with the baby.

And I was like, Well, I'm I'm
trying to have people over to

the house and like have a have a
party.

I was like, You got the baby.

Uh uh Yeah, it was bad, you
know.

I mean, there was there were one
or two people that would hang

with me uh and and drink as long
as we could drink.

But um I was working in
restaurants, I had graduated

college, I managed to finish
college, was all of a sudden,

you know, through through that
period of sobriety.

Um I was still working at the
restaurant and hospitality and

I'd gotten a promotion.

Uh, I was going to become the
youngest manager that the

company had ever seen.

And so my last night at the
restaurant that I had opened and

built up with the regular staff,
you know, being that I was

transitioning into management, I
got to hang with the managers

for the first time.

All right.

So, like we had a couple of
drinks and we went and smoked a

little weed after work.

And I came home to my son's mom,
who's also my wife at the time,

and she could tell that I was
stoned.

She's like, that's it, we're
done.

Pack your pack your stuff and
get on out of here.

She's hardline about about
smoking weed, right?

Um, yeah, to this day, I think
she's tried it once or twice and

wasn't a fan.

She's wow.

Thankfully, she's not one of us.

SPEAKER_02: Wow.

So she would drink with you, but
anything beyond drinking was a

no-no.

SPEAKER_00: Hard no, hard pass.

Incredible.

Yep.

SPEAKER_02: So so all right, you
you you built this restaurant,

you move into management, you
started drinking again, a little

bit of weed, relationship ends
without reconciliation.

Is that right?

SPEAKER_00: Yep.

Yeah, the professional ended up
telling us that that we were

better off figuring out how to
co-parent from different

addresses, which was great
advice, you know, and it and

that worked out well for us in
the long term.

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: So what happens?

Do you go on a run at this
point, or or what does this look

like?

SPEAKER_00: Try some controlled
drinking?

Several years.

I mean, I don't know that there
were uh I guess you could try

controlled drinking.

I don't know that I was trying
to control it, you know.

I I'd never drank in bars
before, you know.

So like I had all these bars in
Orlando, the greater Orlando

area was my playground, you
know.

So uh uh I I I got my money's
worth on that relapse.

That that that run lasted for
years.

Um, you know, my my newborn son
or toddler son didn't need much

from me at the time.

Um, you know, so I I was pretty
free to kind of do what I

wanted, free from the
relationship, um, free from any

most all you know responsibility
surrounding being a father.

Um you know, and over over time
I remember I I I found that that

going across town to drink was
not safe because I would

blackout and figure out a way to
get home in a blackout, which

usually meant I'm driving.

Um and that started to get a
little scary.

So I kept it to a pretty tight
radius, and that meant, you

know, the the few places that
were within a couple miles of

where I lived.

Um and then that got old.

So I was like, well, we're gonna
go back out to other parts of

town again.

Um and uh I remember a couple of
blackouts, a couple of uh couple

of times where I managed to get
out of DUIs where you know,

somehow managed to pass field
sobriety tests, uh, convinced

convinced the cops to let me get
a ride home, um, total, totaled

a vehicle, um and and got away
scot-free.

I mean, you know, I I I got away
with a couple of couple few

things that I was I recognized
that I was uh my chances were

running out, you know, to to get
away with what I was getting

away with.

Um and so I uh I I went back to
where I I knew to go, you know,

went back to the same place that
I went that was only a few doors

down from the pizzeria.

And uh a lot of people there
were still there and they were

happy to see me back.

And uh and I dug in, you know, I
dug in like I had never dug in

before.

SPEAKER_02: How old were you at
this point?

SPEAKER_00: 26.

SPEAKER_02: 26.

Okay.

So you go back to the meeting
you were you were rolling with

prior, people are still there,
and what was what was different

about it then than before?

SPEAKER_00: Uh I think the true
nature of my of our you know, my

disease was was uh I accepted it
for what it for what it really

was, right?

Uh and it it looked like life or
death, you know.

Um it looked like that if I
continue on doing what I'm

doing, uh things are gonna get
real bad real quick, you know.

Um and so I was willing to to do
what they suggested and not just

hang out, you know.

And so I I did, you know, and I
did that.

I did what they suggested, you
know, as as far as uh all the

suggestions I went and and and
picked back up with the the same

guy that I had been trust that I
trusted before, but we never

really did much.

Um and you know, we kind of went
through the motions again, and

it was it was a pretty
lackadaisical approach to you

know to 12-step action recovery
type stuff, but um still you

know felt like I owed it to to
pick up where I left off, and

then went and got a second
sponsor uh and and kind of you

know and took a new approach to
it.

Um and every time we got to that
place where I'm supposed to be

the one reaching out to help
somebody else, I'm like, I'm

not, I don't know that I'm that
I'm quite ready yet.

So I went and got a third within
third sponsor probably within a

year, year, maybe a year and a
half.

Um, and and that that sponsor I
I think you know I led with

this, you know, seeming
inability, unwillingness, or or

or unqualified, unqualification,
not qualified approach to to

helping somebody else because
I'm I'm still you know feeling

like I'm pretty young and got
some more more drinking

experience on the mobile for
sure, but you know, like really

looking up to some people that
know the literature and know the

program.

And I I don't, you know, but but
he dug in and and helped me get

a little bit more acquainted
with the literature and the

books and the process and um
taught me how to how to approach

guys.

And so I followed that, followed
that suggestion and approached a

guy who uh seemed to have a you
know kind of lukewarm sponsor at

the time and gave my number and
said I'd be I'd be happy to help

if you ever just want someone to
talk to.

And next thing you know, he
asked me to be the guy, and I

got to be the guy for the first
time.

Wow.

And that I I I can remember that
experience just as clearly as I

can remember my first drink and
my first high, you know.

SPEAKER_02: What was that like?

Like, what was that like to have
somebody ask you?

SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I mean, I I
was flattered, I was floored, I

was intimidated and scared, and
uh he he was a he was a such a

cool character, too.

I mean, like big, stocky stature
refrigerator of a guy.

I mean, competitive power lifter
at one point, but also like off

the charts smart.

Like ended up going to study
neuroscience at a high level,

you know, like uh brilliant, you
know, and soft spoken, quiet,

um, but like physically very
intimidating.

Um and he was desperate, right?

And he was eager and he was
willing to do the work, and he

did the work.

Um, and I I remember distinctly
he had gotten a really good job.

He was starting to clean up his
past, and he had that kind of it

was almost like a like an aha
moment of his own, you know,

where like you know, he had
heard it from me and other

people that saw the change in
him.

But I think he started to be
convinced that he was actually

getting better, you know, it was
after you know months of work.

But uh we were sitting in the
front seat of my explorer.

I was driving a four explorer at
the time, and he was in the

passenger seat, and I think I
was dropping him off for work or

hanging out with him while he
was on a break for work.

Distinctly remember where we
were geographically, and uh he's

like he said something, he's
like, Man, you saved my life.

And I was like, dude, I didn't
do shit.

I was like, he saved your life,
and I was like, and it as soon

as I did that, I was like, what
what where did the whole thing

just came together?

And I was like, dude, this is so
wild, this is so far outside my

realm of understanding and
logic.

That like he said that to me and
I responded the way that I did,

and it was it was powerful,
right?

Like he was probably in tears, I
was probably in tears, uh, or at

least you know, overwhelmed with
emotion as to how special that

moment really was.

Um and I was hooked, man.

I like uh the Kool-Aid was had
never been tastier in that

moment, right?

Uh so I went I went on a rampage
and was ready to save everybody

at that point, you know.

And and did you?

SPEAKER_02: Where did where did
it go from there?

SPEAKER_00: No, no, I mean I I I
definitely, you know, I I took

that experience and you know,
and and and definitely went on a

uh a campaign, right, to to
sponsor as many guys as I could,

you know, but I but I also you
know I it wasn't long before you

know I became distracted with
relationships and um you know

the the the the young people's
you know like sub-fellowship if

you want to call it became
really attractive and like

service work within that was
also a really big component of

that period of sobriety for me,
um, which included you know

popularity and like you know
gaining a network that was far

outside of our immediate
geographic network and you know,

parties and events and
conferences and you know,

juggling, you know, raising a
child, you know, every other

weekend because you know Brody's
Brody's starting to grow up at

this point, you know.

So we're having some fun and and
it, you know, I'm I'm kind of

showing off a little bit because
now I'm now I'm a present father

and active involved in his life.

And we're doing some cool stuff.

Um but you know, probably
probably ill, ill motives behind

some of that, you know, just
looking to get validation that

that I haven't gotten in
previous chapters.

Um uh but I mean I I think I I
think I carried, you know, two,

three, four, five sponsees at
different points throughout the

next four or five years, you
know.

Uh and that, you know, that
ended up being a a full you

know, six, seven year period of
of you know, pretty, pretty

active work uh in the program,
you know, service work, you

know, and making a life for
myself too.

You know, I got out of the
hospitality industry, I got into

real estate, and that was that
proved to be pretty, pretty

successful there for a few
years.

Um, you know, I was able to
create a cool life for myself,

you know, got out of renting
these tiny little one and two

bedroom condos and bought a home
and had some toys and took some

trips and you know, provided for
my son in a pretty good way.

But uh, I think that also led to
ultimately the demise, which

looked like resetting the clock
again.

Um but uh but it was you know,
for all intents and purposes, it

was a pretty cool, pretty cool
run there for for eight years of

of sobriety in my late 20s and
early 30s.

SPEAKER_02: So you mentioned the
demise.

We uh I would be remiss if I
didn't ask you about the time

leading up to that.

Like what did it the still sober
time and then obviously the

picking up time?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
leading up to year eight, you

know, I mean, it was uh, you
know, we we we hosted a really

big conference in Orlando um
that was a big culmination of a

lot of years of work.

Um and you know, I was pretty
burnt out with with that

experience, which a lot of
people have similar experiences,

but but that that led to a uh a
pretty deliberate separation, at

least from that, you know, that
that group, that sub-fellowship,

if you will.

Um plus my material success, I
think, fueled uh some some

pretty big ego.

You know, I had I had been given
opportunity to speak um in front

of some decent-sized crowds, and
I I I remember talking more

about how, you know, like I was
probably like a hopeful agnostic

and therapy was really great,
you know, um, which was all very

true, but it wasn't it wasn't a
great message of recovery, you

know.

Um and it and it was it there
was a lot of pride, a lot of

taking credit for for the things
that I had accomplished and the

successes that I had.

Um, you know, another another
bad breakup as a result of

trying to, you know, align with
partners that were just

ultimately unequally yoked, um,
you know, and and and feeling as

if I came out ahead from that.

Um I'd seen a couple people
close to me that were seemed to

be drinking successfully, and uh
that started to look attractive.

Uh so that that last year was
probably my my exit, you know.

I I like the uh this theory
that, you know, I would work the

steps backwards, right?

Probably disengaged with anybody
that was still calling me their

sponsor at the time, you know,
started finding fault at every

meeting that I was going to, or
the people at that meeting the

meetings that I was going to.

Um far more interested in, you
know, this just awful idea that

I needed to continue building my
life outside of recovery

meetings.

Um and I feel like at one point
I I saw or read or learned that

that biologically on a cellular
level, our entire bodies are

regenerated eight years every
eight years, and I'm coming up

to eight years sober.

I'm like, well, perfect time,
right?

Eight years sober.

Uh I I don't longer have the
same proclivities.

And so uh within a couple months
of of getting eight years, you

know, I uh went on a bumble date
and she had some cocktails and I

had some cocktails with her.

Um right back at it.

SPEAKER_02: You never hear that
I and I I forget who says it,

but it's somebody maybe it was
it was Steve or some one of the

guys, he says, he says, I've got
two brain cells, one's selling

me bullshit and the other one's
buying it.

And that eight years of of your
body regenerating, man, that is

that's a bumper sticker right
there.

Yeah, I I drank over that, you
know.

That's hilarious.

Back by science.

Yep.

Yeah, no, no.

I mean, hang, you could make the
argument.

And so uh the bumble date.

I met my wife on Bumble.

Bumble dates were nice.

SPEAKER_01: Uh the only reason I
haven't I haven't deleted it

yet.

SPEAKER_02: So you you pick up
how old are you at this point?

Oh, we lost sound.

So you you go out on this date,
on this bumble date with this

girl, you pick up some drinks.

How old are you at this point?

Oh, we're cutting out again.

Say it again.

34?

SPEAKER_01: 34?

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude.

Hold on, I'm gonna pause this
again.

SPEAKER_00: I was 34, yeah, 34
years old.

SPEAKER_02: Okay, and so so
where where do you go at this

point, right?

And and it's interesting the
mindset that before you answer

that, the mindset that you kind
of allude to, and that when when

we get to that point of
restless, irritable, and

discontented again in sobriety,
and and our our brains offer us

up this absurd reason for maybe
I can try it again.

Oh, did I lose you?

Nope, you're there.

Uh, this insane reason for maybe
maybe I could try it again, and

and we believe it, uh, almost
without a shadow of a doubt.

Like it's it's crazy the way
that that works.

And so, all right, you you pick
up what does this run look like?

SPEAKER_00: That one didn't last
long.

Um, that would have been
somewhere around the holiday

time uh 2020.

Um within a few months, I mean,
COVID, I think COVID had said at

this point, right?

So like the world was getting
weird, and it may have been, you

know, leading up to that, that
that that may have contributed

to my justification for going
out again, right?

Because meetings were getting
weird and uh added to my

disinterest to it.

But um my father caught my
father got sick in March of

2021.

Um, and he ended up dying of
COVID within about 10 days of

getting sick.

March or April?

April.

Maybe got sick, he got sick late
March, past early April.

Um, and the the bottom really
fell out for me after that.

I mean, I I had a good reason to
anesthetize and you know, be mad

at God, the world, you name it.

Um, and uh, you know drank and
used to escape, right?

I didn't want to feel what I was
feeling at the time.

It was it was by design.

Um and uh and that that became
that became really, really

scary, really ugly.

Um and so I I I I think I lasted
through the summertime of 2021

before I wandered back in with
tail between my legs after like

six months, um, you know, and
and dad passing.

And um, but but even that, you
know, is that would that would

have been summertime of 21, and
then I lost my hearing in

November of 21.

And that was my next excuse to
be mad at the world and God,

because that you know, that
there was no no real solution

for that after a few months of
seeing doctors.

Um, you know, so I went back out
again and and absolutely dig

into that a little bit.

Yeah, sure, definitely.

SPEAKER_02: So what what
happens?

All right, you you stop drinking
after the summer, and then

November comes around.

And I've heard you tell me the
story, you know, in the past,

but I'm curious if you could
explain it to the people

listening.

SPEAKER_00: Sure.

Uh yeah, uh November 4th, 2021,
day that I'll never forget,

right?

I mean, I I woke up early, way
earlier than I needed to be

awake for, and uh felt like felt
like I had swimmer's ear, right?

Like my ear was clogged or full,
um, but couldn't seem to shake

it up or loosen it up or clean
out whatever earwax may have

been in there.

So uh started to get a little
bit concerned, you know, as the

day was getting started.

And Google said, yeah, treat it
like a medical emergency, you

know, go see a doctor if you
can.

Um so I got my son off to
school, uh, got a doctor's

appointment for that afternoon,
went and got every

over-the-counter earwax removal
kit I could get my hands on, and

spent hours thinking it might
just be earwax.

And the doctor went and looked
inside my ear uh with uh, you

know, the autoscope and was
like, yeah, no, that's one of

the cleanest ear canals I've
ever seen.

Um and he went through a hearing
test and it was bad.

It was real bad.

So they they prescribed um
steroids, oral steroids,

prednisone for a couple weeks
and hopefully it would come,

hopefully it would improve.

It did not.

Switch from oral steroids to
intramuscular steroids uh for a

couple of weeks, hoping it would
improve.

It did not.

And uh after that, they said,
well, you know, we got one less

shot to try, and that's shots of
steroids directly into your

eardrum.

But I don't know that that's a
good idea because your hearing

hasn't gotten any better since
then, uh, since it happened.

So we opted not to do that.

Um, started going through a
process to get uh approval from

insurance to get a cochlear
implant.

Come to find out I didn't have a
the right insurance company to

approve that single sided
cochlear implant procedure

because they didn't feel it was
medically necessary.

Uh so the doctors basically
said, not much we can do for

you, but come open enrollment
next year, come back with like a

blue cross plan.

Uh And in the meantime, just
distract your brain from the

constant ringing that it's all I
could hear at that point, you

know.

Uh fortunately some of the other
side effects had gone away.

There were some balance issues
at first, some vertigo.

Um, but the ringing was 24-7 in
my deaf ear, right?

And that was maddening.

Um, and the doctor said, just
distract yourself from that.

And I was like, well, I know how
to do that.

Uh so I went back to chemicals
and uh figured I would just ride

it till the wheels fell off or
some miraculous change of policy

or medical breakthrough or you
name it.

Um learned what it would cost to
pay out of pocket.

Didn't have that much in the
bank, but I had some assets.

So I sold, sold the house, sold
as many toys as I was willing to

par with, um, moved from Orlando
to Sanford uh because downtown

Sanford looked like a lot of
fun.

And uh as a result of the move,
I was able to change insurance

companies earlier than open
enrollment because I was still

self-employed as a full-time
real estate agent at the time.

Um but I dug in and found found
an insurance company that I

could get a policy through the
marketplace that would allow and

approve the procedure.

So about a year later, um I
managed to get seen by the right

doctor uh who got the approval
from the insurance company that

I had just gotten, and had a
surgery date scheduled for the

summer of uh 2023, and went down
to South Florida and became a

bionic man.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah.

So were you were drinking this
whole time, like November,

December of 21 until 20 pretty
much pretty much?

Early 24, late 24.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember I
remember I wandered into a

couple of meetings during the
time that I was living in

Sanford, but you know, it wasn't
it wasn't the quality of life

that I had was was was slim, you
know.

I mean, with the the the
tinnitus when I was sober was

was pretty unbearable, you know,
the tinnitus while drinking and

and using and partying and
socializing, you know, that was

a a very viable distraction for
the the literal sound in my

head, you know.

Um I was I was willing to go on
to the you know the bitter end,

blotting out the consciousness
of my intolerable situation as

best I could.

Um, because what I had
physiologically was was was

intolerable.

Um but then I got the procedure,
I went back a month later, uh,

they turned it on, the ringing
went away, and then uh I

celebrated for a couple months
and then and then showed back up

in December of 23.

SPEAKER_02: And what what was
the catalyst to bring you back

in?

SPEAKER_00: I think once once
the the they activated the

device in my head that that
caused the ringing to stop, you

know, the there there there felt
like there was a real quality of

life worth preserving, you know,
and uh whatever additional

convincing came as a natural
byproduct of that, you know,

period of anesthesizing
deliberately um was was

sufficient, you know.

I mean, I had uh another several
other you know, near misses with

law enforcement, you know, car
accident, hospitalization, um

you know, all during that that
what would have been two-year

period, so two and a half year
period.

Um you know, so it was there
there was there was little to no

doubt in my mind that that I
needed I needed to be done, you

know.

Um Brody was gosh, he would have
been 15 at the time, 14, 14

years old, my son, 14, you know,
obviously super impressionable.

Um somehow managed to avoid any
real consequences for him, you

know.

He he he would tell you he's
never seen me drink, you know,

because he didn't know I was
drinking the couple of times

that I that I did with him
around.

Um, but knew that I was I was
flirting with some pretty severe

consequences that that could
start having adverse effects on

him and and other people that
that were fond of me.

So um quality of life had been
restored, you know.

It took a couple of months, I
think, for me to really come to

terms with that and get over the
pride of of coming back, you

know, again.

Sure, you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_02: Well, and I'm
curious about that.

As somebody who has, you know,
lived most of their adult life

in and then out of a 12-step
fellowship, what was it like

coming back, you know, this last
time?

What what what did you find to
be one of the most difficult

things?

SPEAKER_00: Uh I mean, uh
anything that that I I think was

was perceived to be difficult
was only real actually difficult

in my head before I actually
followed through with it.

You know, it was fear-based
difficulties for sure.

I think once I once I finally
did show up again to the the

places that I didn't want to go
to, um, I was met with open arms

and encouragement.

You know, I mean it was humility
is, you know, it's a tough pill

to swallow, but I think it it it
was the appropriate theme and

and largely still is, you know,
for me, you know, the

appropriate theme or focal point
of of my sobriety now is

humility.

Um and you know, really
accepting true defeat that this

thing, this thing will always
win if I don't do a couple few

things that I was taught to do a
long time ago, just never put

into practice with any real
discipline, you know, uh and and

and keeping humility as the
focal point um I think has has

helped keep me right size.

Um, you know, a couple of and
again, near-death experiences,

um, you know, and and
recognizing that while my

quality of life, even with the
cochlear implant, is still

significantly compromised, it's
far better than the alternative,

you know, being sober for sure.

You know, um, and I I've leaned
into that, you know.

I mean, you know, you've had a
ferro seat to what the past few

years of of my life has looked
like with you know, with hearing

loss in sobriety, you know.

Uh I I've managed to lead into
that.

It's become a really special
silver lining for for what life

looks like today, you know.

But uh, but yeah, I was I was
pretty scared to death there for

a little bit.

You know, I prior to getting
sober again, I was willing to

see my son through high school,
right?

I figured once he graduated high
school, I would exhaust whatever

resources I had left to go, you
know, see what the bitter end

actually looked like, you know,
if I could speed it up, you

know, because right I missed dad
too.

I was, you know, a little more
interested to see what dad's

what dad was experiencing on the
other side of of uh of a human

experience, you know.

SPEAKER_02: So uh one of the
things that that I struggled

with, because I'm a frequent
retread, uh even you know, more

times than than I can count,
probably at this point.

But one of the things that I
struggled with having been in

12-step recovery for most of my
adult life was was having some

knowledge from a prior
experience, but and then then

not allowing myself to have a
new experience because what I

was doing was I was framing up
my current experience through

the eyes of what I had
experienced before.

Wow.

I think it just made myself
confused.

But but I think you I think you
understand what I'm saying right

later.

Yeah, just like let it be new,
like allow myself to be a

newcomer, not be the guy that's
like, hey, I'm new, I got two

months, but I had seven years,
or hey, you know what I mean?

That that kind of guy.

And uh and I'm curious if you
went through any of that coming

back.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, hundred 100%,
right?

Uh you know, but I I I remember
getting some some neat insight

from some people.

I can't remember specifically
who or what the context was, but

you know, they they they pointed
out that like the collective

experience in sobriety is not
wasted, is not gone, you know.

Like you you managed to, there
were certain things that you

learned to do successfully or
effectively for significant

periods of time, you know.

And so even though like in the
early days, you know, raising my

hand is a newcomer or picking
up, you know, all the chips

leading up to the year, you
know, uh I think it in the back

of my head, and I maybe even
articulated a couple of times

that like when somebody asks how
much time you have, it's like,

well, consecutively, I've got
this.

Collectively, I've got this, you
know, because like and I feel

like there's value to that, you
know.

And um when it comes down to
like the experience part, like

the experience has been wildly
different, right?

The knowledge piece is is
absolutely worth retaining

because you know, the literature
hasn't changed, the suggestions

within the literature haven't
changed.

Sure, there might be some new
tactics to to you know in uh uh

implore um or deploy rather, but
you know, uh it's all

surrounding the same the same
thing at the core, all of the

it's still the same, you know.

So, you know, I I feel
profoundly fortunate that you

know I I had this sponsor that I
had for the first year, year and

a half, you know, we were
sponsee brothers there for a

bit.

Um, you know, and he he gave me
some ideas and some suggestions

of things that I had never heard
of before.

And I got to work on all of
them, you know, like

immediately.

And I I took it competitively,
like similarly how he refers to

his experience being new, you
know.

I remember thinking to myself,
man, this guy sponsors a bunch

of guys.

I'm gonna be MVP of the year,
rookie of the year, sponsee of

the year, you name it, you know,
and and you and I were in

competition at one point, you
didn't even know it, you know.

Um just just from that that that
approach, you know, but like I I

I knew that I needed to have a
new experience.

I knew that I needed to have a
different experience that was

sustainable and not that
glamorous, you know what I mean?

Because I had had a glamorous
experience before, at least what

I thought, you know.

Um or if this experience, if and
maybe when it does become

glamorous, that I don't take any
credit for it, you know what I

mean?

Because like largely I don't
deserve another shot at this

thing, you know.

Um how many lives, how many
lives does one get to really

have when it talks about, you
know, when we're when we really

are dancing with the devil, you
know?

Um so I mean the the experience
has been profoundly different,

uh even though the knowledge
piece or the the approach to

what we know to be true about,
you know, the literature, the

program, the actions to be
taken, you know, it's it's grown

without a doubt.

It's absolutely grown and
evolved.

And it's still, you know, still
very humbling to to talk about

this stuff, you know, because
there's I have a buddy that I

was in treatment with 20 some
odd years ago who is only a

couple months older than me, and
he hasn't changed his sobriety

date, right?

Like he is he's 40 years old
with 21 years sober.

That's wild.

Yeah, man.

And you know, we're we're we're
yeah, dude, crushing life.

And uh, you know, we're he and I
are still in touch, you know,

his family and and and my family
are still pretty, pretty deeply

intertwined.

I still call his mom my mom.

You know, I'd call up right now
and and ask for a home cooked

meal and she'd ask me what time
I'm showing up, you know.

Um so that that those
experiences run pretty deep and

it's it's it's it's humbling to
talk about, but it's a great

reminder of of what's out there
waiting for me if if it seems

like a good idea at any given
point, which it hasn't, you

know, it really hasn't uh in the
past few years.

SPEAKER_02: Um along those
lines, I want to ask you a

question.

I mean, one thing, you know,
anytime I can recollect having a

very fulfilling experience in
sobriety, I've always been

surrounded by deep connections
with other people.

Like I can I can look out and I
can go, okay, here are all the

people that are in my circle and
they know me and I know them,

right?

And it's that thing that, you
know, I never really got

anywhere else.

And I'm I'm curious if that's
been, you know, a part of your

experience as well.

SPEAKER_00: For the last few
years, uh, without a doubt, you

know what I mean?

Um the experience that I've had
over the past few years looks

nothing like the collective 11
years or so that I'd had prior

to this, you know.

Um primarily men's meetings and
an HI commitment.

Uh you know, leaning into those
connections with other men that

are walking similar paths, you
know, the iron sharpens iron,

God speaking us through 90
degree angles, um, you know,

learning how to get past or or
learn to get comfortable in the

uncomfortable, you know, with
being transparent and honest

about what's going on in my
life, despite the fear of

judgment, you know, which has
never been the reality, right?

It's all in my head.

Um, you know, and and and at any
point in time that I'm feeling

lonely, I all I gotta do is open
the messages on my phone and and

see that that there's a handful
of guys in there that I know

everything about what's going on
in their life.

And at any given point, they're
happy to hear about everything

going on in my life.

And uh, you know, I I I've done
better in the past.

I can afford to do better in
that that arena here and now,

um, you know, with with just
keeping current.

Um, but you know, I I I I would
say to my defense, you know,

when I when I get current, I get
current.

You know, it's there's I don't I
don't hold back.

You know, I'll I'll I'll get you
I'll get you up to speed with

what's really going on without
beating around the bush.

Um, you know, my current sponsor
knows everything going on in my

life.

Um that whole experience has
been wild, meeting, meeting the

guy, you know, Paul that I the
guy that I've got now who has

the same kind of hearing loss
that I do um as a byproduct of

of Hunter and you know the the
retreats and all that stuff, you

know, like just none of this,
what I've got now, none of this

looked attractive five, ten
years ago.

You know, like I was all about
doing young people's stuff and

throwing parties and going to
conferences, you know, where

we're throwing parties and
staying up late and hooking up

and and now it's like not
interested, you know.

I can't wait to go hang out with
a bunch of dudes and talk about

our feelings, you know.

SPEAKER_02: Like what's a lot to
be said for growing up.

I mean, there there really is.

And I'm curious, and and maybe
we'll can conclude with this

question.

Sure, you know, to if and I I'm
always surprised, and I I I I

watch a lot of recovery
podcasts, and I'm surprised at

how many comments come in from
people who are they would they

have tried sobriety, they
couldn't get the sobriety angle,

or it didn't seem to click.

And and I'm curious what you
would say to somebody who um

feels like they've tried
sobriety and they've they've

tried the 12-step recovery
angle, and and you know, they

would say something like, Well,
it just didn't work for me, you

know.

And I I know you've heard people
say that before.

I know I've heard a lot of
people say that before.

Uh what what would you say to
what would you say to somebody

like that?

SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I don't
know.

I try and pick it apart.

Like, did you really try?

Did you try 12 out of 12?

You know, were you were you
actively reaching out to people

that are dying from this thing?

Um are you re are you the real
deal?

You know?

Um that may be might not be the
best approach to it, but you

know, arguably plenty of people
show up here that that may not

have exactly what we have.

They just had a bad run at it.

And so arguably they may not
have the same experience going

through the process of recovery
that we've known to be

effective.

Um but you know, I would I would
say have you really try have you

really tried?

Have you exhausted all possible
options within that?

Have you tried every meeting
within a 30-minute drive from

where you live, right?

Are there other meetings to try?

Um, is it is it the people or is
it the actual process?

Because if it's the people, then
no, you haven't tried, right?

People are fallible.

We're all gonna sell, we're all
gonna disappoint you at some

point, you know.

Uh the program and the and their
introduction to a power greater

than ourselves that is perfect
and infallible will never fail,

you know.

Uh the track record speaks for
itself.

Not just me, but anybody and
everybody I know that that that

practices this thing on a daily
basis, you know.

So um try again, try harder, try
different, you know, something

like that.

If it if you've got this thing
and you're scared to death of

it, let's find something that
you haven't tried yet, because

it's there's there's a version
of this that'll work for you.

It might look a little different
than the one you've tried, but

there's there's another version.

Might just look like a slightly
different group of people, or

the Buddhist approach, or the
celebrate recovery approach, or

you know, whatever, or a
different, a different A, a

blank A that we just haven't
tried, you know, like maybe

their meetings are way, way more
appropriate for your cup of tea.

Let's go try them all.

I'm down.

Uh I'll I'll go with you.

You know, I want to experience
it all.

Drum circles, crystals, you
know, essentialists.

Let's do all of it, you know.

Let's see what works.

Because there's there's options
you haven't tried yet.

I'd almost guarantee you.

If you're convinced it's not
working, then there are options

you haven't explored yet.

SPEAKER_02: Beautiful.

Jordan, thank you so much for
being here, my friend.

Always a pleasure to see you.

I love you.

SPEAKER_01: Thank you, sir.

SPEAKER_02: Yeah, dude.

For anyone listening in, thanks
for tuning in.

And uh we'll catch you guys on
the next episode.

Take care.