One Last Hit | A Sobriety and Addiction Recovery Podcast

SPEAKER_00: What is happening,
my friends?

My name's Austin, your host for
the One Last Hit Podcast.

And back with me today, Mr.

Hunter S.

Hunter, what's up, buddy?

SPEAKER_01: What's up, Austin?

I love that intro.

SPEAKER_00: Great song.

I see in your scrubs there.

Are you are you a proctologist?

What is it that you do?

SPEAKER_01: Uh unlicensed uh
after hours.

Yeah, sure.

Yeah, 100%.

Previously licensed pharmacist
and now an unlicensed gyno and

proctologist.

SPEAKER_00: Hey man.

Shitty got shitty gig, you know.

SPEAKER_01: I fix uh I fix
hearing.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I know
you do, bud.

I we that's good.

I could use some hearing fixes.

My wife accuses me of being
deaf.

I accusing her of I accuse her
of just not talking loud enough,

you know.

So it's uh one of those.

SPEAKER_01: I know you know, but
the the the listeners don't

know.

I don't want to actually think
I'm an unlicensed, you know,

kind of proc.

Uh it would be a be a bad look.

We get them coming and going,
you know what I'm saying?

Like that would be a great dude.

SPEAKER_00: So important that
all right.

So this is gonna be uh I think
the second or third just

shooting the shit, one last hit
that we've done.

And I had something very
interesting get texted to me

yesterday.

So uh it was actually from a
sponsee, uh, funny enough.

And it was so it was a podcast,
and I'm not gonna say the name

of the podcast just to not like
get too granular and and

specific about it, but it was a
podcast of somebody who I know

is very anti-12-step recovery,
and she had a guy on who was

talking about the indoctrination
of AA, right?

Like basically that that he had
his brainwashed and could not

stay sober in a 12-step recovery
room, and he was going down all

these different rabbit holes as
to why that was, which I found

really interesting because
there's a lot of ways that

didn't work for me to get sober,
and I've never gone on a podcast

and spent an entire hour railing
against that way of getting

sober because I know that there
are ways that work for other

people that that may or may not
work for me.

And I was curious, have you seen
the anti-AA movement or the

anti-12-step recovery movement
out there?

It's actually pretty prominent
on in media right now.

SPEAKER_01: Let me reflective
listen for your your own you

know benefit, you're you're
lagging a little.

Uh the audio is is is off on my
end, but that may not be an

issue.

So I was enjoying uh going back
and forth in my head, thinking,

does he know that he's lagging?

Maybe he isn't lagging, I'm
lagging.

This is a really interesting
concept, and I'm going back and

forth between the two.

SPEAKER_00: You're you're good.

So this'll this will all wash
out in production.

It'll be fine.

Don't worry about it.

SPEAKER_01: So to just make sure
I got you.

You had somebody bring to to
your attention that there is

this conversation about like
basically anti-recovery.

There are people that are that
are atheistic about 12-step

recovery rather than agnostic
about it.

That they really have a a belief
that there is some proof that

not doing it works to some
degree.

SPEAKER_00: Not necessarily
that.

So let me go a little bit
deeper.

So I own a website called
Sobriety Talk, and Sobriety Talk

is it it lists about 1,600
different podcasts that have to

do with all sorts of areas of
recovery.

Gotcha.

Uh, which there's also an area
of that which drives a lot of

traffic to the site, believe it
or not, which is the

anti-12-step side of things.

And so essentially, what I'm at
least gleaming from what I

listened to was that it was it
was a a there's this podcaster

who basically does
anti-anti-12-step, but the

person that she had on is
somebody who it looks like tried

12-step recovery, couldn't get
past 60 days or whatever.

Uh, and then what I heard him
say, and I I didn't go too much

further, so I want to I want to
preface it by saying that, is I

heard him start saying he was
looking in the mirror, saying,

You're a powerful person and
things like that.

And and finally he was able to
stay sober.

But the interesting thing was it
was somebody who took an hour,

an hour and a half of their day
to rally against one particular

type of sobriety, which you
know, like I tried to get sober

in Teen Challenge, um, I tried
to get sober in church, right?

These things they did not work
for a guy like me, but I'm not

gonna spend my time going on and
talking about why church doesn't

work to get sober.

Like that's none of my business,
you know what I mean?

And so I was curious if you
haven't seen this.

SPEAKER_01: I I I think I think
that you know, we're we're

saying the same thing with
different words.

Uh when I said atheist about
recovery, like somebody believes

that they can prove the
non-existence of God.

That is the traditional term of
of atheistic, right?

They can prove we, you know,
we've read it in uh in in a book

that we're we're familiar with
uh in tradition tradition or

step two in the 12 and 12, where
there is a classification of

people that genuinely believe
that they can prove the

non-existence of God.

And yes, I have met people that
believe they can prove the the

the lack of benefit of a 12-step
program where it's cultish,

where it doesn't work, it it's
it's yada yada yada, right?

And they are they genuinely
believe that they can prove that

doing it is um more harmful than
not doing it.

And you know, power to them,
right?

I I think that uh I I think that
you can really kind of kill the

whole argument with check the
record.

Check the record.

Um we've got a book that says,
you know, alcoholics and and

addicts have been dying since
man first stepped on a grave in

church, uh in all sorts of
theologically inclined um you

know schools of of thought and
practice.

People with the disease that
we've got are dying in our

rooms.

Um I I'm I love that
conversation because uh I think

that my experience has forged an
opinion that would challenge

that line of thinking.

And um yeah, I'd love to get
into a conversation with that

person.

SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.

Well, so here's you know, an
interesting thing, right?

And I don't think I've never
felt compelled to defend 12-step

recovery.

I don't think it needs that, nor
it's a it's a real personal

thing, right?

I mean, um, there are aspects of
it that I just absolutely adore.

They set my my heart on fire,
and then there are aspects of it

I don't want to do, but I know
in the midst of not wanting to

do them, those are the ones that
are gonna they're gonna bring

the most power for me.

They're gonna bring the most
growth.

SPEAKER_01: Everything 12-step
recovery related is is not

original.

It's it's adopted from something
else.

It it's only been around for
like 90 years.

unknown: Right.

SPEAKER_01: 1939.

I mean, we're not it's not like
we're the pioneers of self-help

or or or or you know, uh yeah.

I mean, we're we don't we don't
have a monopoly on how to

recover from uh a seemingly
hopeless state of mind and body.

We we we and and truth be told,
if you look at the numbers, I

mean the the the fellowship of
12-step recovery um was was

roughly two million people like
30 or 40 years ago.

And it's still at roughly two to
five million people, and and its

exposure and out and reach has
gone significantly higher than

that.

Every single courtroom in the
United States, for sure, if you

have any drug or alcohol-related
um you know crime, you're you're

encouraged or almost mandated to
go to some sort of 12-step

program.

You know, so the the amount of
people that it has reached is

far greater than you know, two
to five million people, but we

still only have, so they say,
according to the general service

offices, only two to five
million participants, which

suggests to me that a lot more
people have tried it now in 2026

than ever before.

Like the numbers of attempts has
exponentially grown, but the

number of of members has roughly
stayed the same for 30 or 40

years.

And I think, in my opinion,
that's just solely based on the

fact that most of the people
that suffer problems with

alcohol and drugs do not have a
disease of the mind and the body

that some of us are inclined to
have.

And it looks the same to
society, so they attend the

meeting because they have to,
but there is, they do not find

in 12-step recovery what is is
is needed to treat a disease

because they don't have it.

Simple as that.

They don't stay, they don't need
to be.

SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, so I
know you know you had mentioned

the word atheistic earlier, and
I know that there are actually

groups, never been to one, but I
think there they exist in our

local area here in Orlando that
are atheist 12-step recovery

groups, right?

Like, you know, just kind of
straight up, which is

interesting uh to me that that
would be kind of the the

commonality of the bond.

And and I think well, I'm
curious what you think about

that.

I'm curious if you've had any
experience with that.

SPEAKER_01: Are we switching
gears to the groups of people

that are like anti-God?

Well, or just anti-cross up
recovery.

SPEAKER_00: No, we're we're kind
of switching gears to the

anti-God people here for a
second.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, um
anti-god requires faith.

I think the irony is is
laughable.

Uh it's it's actually hilarious.

In order to be atheist, you have
to have a significantly higher

degree of faith than somebody
that just is willing to use a

three-letter word.

SPEAKER_00: We were having a
second-step discussion last

night, and I didn't have an
opportunity to share, but I

remember in the second step
discussion, a guy shared about

what he struggled with was his
con he kept trying to figure out

the concept of a higher power,
not realizing that the

conception really doesn't matter
much.

Uh, in that as soon as he
stopped trying to define it, he

could move forward.

And I think that's kind of
interesting in that I I

remember, you know, my wife
Haley, she used to well, the

inverse of that, real quick, is
that as soon as you define

anything, you limit it.

Right.

I mean, so here's where I was
going.

Haley, Haley's dad passed away
with brain cancer in 2018.

It was really, really bad,
really sudden.

Oh, and she'll she'll be in our
backyard and she'll see

cardinals fly up and she'll say,
Oh, there's my dad, right?

You know, and uh, and I used to
be like, that is some bullshit,

that's a bird.

But you know what?

She's living in a world where
her dad's participating in her

life, and and whether I can
prove that it's true or not

doesn't matter to the experience
that she's having, and I think

that that's true for uh all of
us because I you know we we are

starting to learn a lot about
the quantum world, right?

In the quantum world where a
particle exists in infinite

possibilities until it's
observed and then it chooses a

single path, and like that's the
things that we know now, right?

It it's further than the mind,
then my mind can comprehend.

And so anything that we're
putting on the divine or a

higher power is really just an
adaptation to allow our brains

to you know anthropomorphize
something that really is not

understandable by our you know,
infinity, like no beginning and

no end is not understandable by
by my way of thinking, anyhow.

What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I love how
you how you described Haley's

experience.

What a what a healthy
perspective, you know.

So just to acknowledge that, um,
first and foremost, it's uh for

anybody that's listening that's
in a relationship, what a what a

what a cheat code.

Um their reality, their
perception is their reality, and

their reality is yours.

If you share a roof with them,
you know, strap in.

And and I and I think to the the
meeting conversation, much can

be that's said to the same
effect.

It is a step two, particularly
step two, is more about an

unbelief or a a deprogramming,
in my opinion, than it is a

reprogramming.

I have to get rid of this idea
that I know I have to change my

mind.

And and all the the hope in step
two, the principle of of of the

of the the second step in all
12-step recovery programs is

hope.

I hope that changing my mind is
the answer or it it works.

I have not, it's the only thing
I haven't been willing to do my

up until this point in my life.

I'm going to just drink liquor,
I'm gonna just do cocaine, I'm

gonna just eat a couple grams of
mushrooms today.

I'm I'm only gonna I'm only
gonna do an eight ball before

lunch, right?

Like these are all ideas that I
am committed to exercising,

participating in.

My beliefs have always affected
my behavior.

Um, the problem is that I am
completely um I'm a victim to my

beliefs, and and they are
unanchored to everything of

value.

My, you know, and and I had a
teacher tell me uh early on in

recovery that that we don't
care.

John said it last night, we
don't care what you believe.

We really don't give a shit what
you believe.

We definitely don't care what
you don't believe.

And how many conversations have
you had with somebody before or

after a meeting, or even even
hearing the share?

Somebody is committed to telling
you what they don't believe in.

Can you think of anything more
useless than what you don't

believe in?

I don't give a shit about what
you believe.

I'm too damn selfish to worry
about what you believe.

And I sure as hell I'm not gonna
put any stock and trade in what

you don't believe.

I apply that to my own life,
change the perspective, and look

through a different lens and
look at how I lived my life

prior to recovery.

I was 100% committed to acting
as a guy would act if he

believed what I believed until I
changed my belief.

I changed my belief right after
two or three lines.

I changed my beliefs right after
three or four drinks.

I don't need to pay rent, I
don't need to go home, I don't

need to do this, I don't need to
do that.

I can drive better with one eye
than most people can with two,

you know, and I'm just just
follow the line.

Um, you know, I my beliefs have
never really been of any

significant value because I'm of
the willingness or inability I

have to staying true to them.

And so when I get into a 12-step
program of recovery, whether

it's a meeting of dedicated to
the non-existence of God or a

meeting dedicated to just old
school traditional recovery,

once I get to step two, I am
simply asked to change my mind

and to maintain a willingness to
have it changed based on the

evidence of my life.

That, in my opinion, is step
two.

It says we the the step is one
of the most misread things in in

recovery.

Next time you hear how it works,
they're gonna screw up two

things.

Step two, came to believe in a
power greater than myself, and

then step twelve having had a
spiritual awakening um as a

result.

That's not what they say, right?

Came to believe that a power,
not in, that a power could

restore me to sanity, and step
twelve having had a spiritual

awakening as the not a the
result.

We have one result, and that is
a spiritual awakening or

spiritual experience.

Some of some people have
different um um, you know, some

are educational, some are some
are sudden and profound.

Came to believe that a power,
this is why I think Bill wrote

it that way.

Came to believe that a power
greater than ourselves could

restore us to sanity, doesn't
require any real belief.

It requires an unbelief.

I don't have to believe in a
power in order to move forward

because my beliefs limit and and
and and and hurt me more than

they help me.

They don't really have my
behavior, is what is required in

step two.

My behavior needs to change.

I need to behave in such a way
that a power exists and I'm not

it.

And if I can get there, then I
can actually have an experience

in the third step.

I can I can find a willingness
to write in four and tell the

truth in five and and look at
what is really the handicap in

my life in six and seven, and it
ain't them.

If I'm not the problem, there is
no solution, brother.

And and and then there's an
enthusiasm about making the

amends.

God, I couldn't wait to get in
front of people, not for the

reasons that a lot of my
sponsees have, but um I had an

internal experience with step
two, step one, part B, and step

two.

It was an experience so profound
that for the next several years

into my recovery, I was
convinced that step two was a

singular event.

It took me to almost suicidal
levels and depths in my recovery

at almost 10 years, 10 years
sober to find myself more

self-reliant and further from
God than I had been since the

day I walked into a rehab.

And uh, and that was a reality
check.

And in that moment, I came to I
was faced, my ego had to be

surrendered to the reality of my
powerlessness and and and

inability to produce good
results.

I I hit I hit a bottom at 10
years sober that I didn't hit

when I was getting a sobriety
date.

Yeah, and it was that it was
that step to experience that it

is well, let me rephrase.

It was that step to principle
that this is not a singular

event.

This is a way of life, it is a
design for living, it is a

perspective on reality that
aligns with what is going on in

everyone else's world.

So probably more of an answer.

SPEAKER_00: I was taking notes
as you were talking there

because some things were were
coming up for me.

SPEAKER_01: What what what you
well?

SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna tell you.

So we know we know a lot of
things about the brain today

that maybe we didn't know back
in the 30s.

SPEAKER_01: Like, for instance,
I love when you talk about this

stuff.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, take us down a
rabbit hole.

Let's go down the rabbit hole.

When when we have an experience
mixed with an intense emotion,

kind of like I had this morning,
which maybe we'll get into, um,

the brain digs out these
neuropathways.

And when when pain is
experienced, it it tries to

associate a cause, right?

So, for instance, if I I don't
know, put my hand on a stove, my

brain goes, What burned you?

It was the stove.

Okay, anytime we see a hot
stove, we're gonna feel some

fear as a as a preservation
mechanism.

But in alcoholics and addicts,
what happens is because we have,

in my experience, trouble
differentiating the true from

the false, meaning I don't
necessarily see the facts of the

world.

I see the emotion I'm
experiencing based on, you know,

the input my eyes are giving me.

And then it's distorting my
reality.

And so I'm picking up pain in
all sorts of different places,

and my brain is associating all
these different things with

pain.

All right.

So when we come in here and we
first get sober, I'm scared.

I'm scared constantly.

People I don't know, fear.

You know what I mean?

Um, somebody looking at me too
closely, fear.

I can't let you see me, right?

There's and uh what a lot of
these constitute, at least in

the the vernacular that we would
use, is old ideas.

They're old ideas, right?

They're ideas that I believe are
true based on past experience

that maybe elephant beliefs
exactly that once I'm proven

wrong, then I then we can
correct them.

And I think what I heard you
saying is step two is many small

experiences of a correction of
old ideas that are not just

simply not true.

And there are some beliefs
though, or at least in my life,

there are some things that I
can't get on board with a higher

power if these things don't
exist.

Like, for instance, one of the
things that I have to roll with

is that the universe is always
working out for good, that it's

it's not a it's not a random
crapshoot that that what I put

out I get back, right?

That that I've got a I've in the
top of page 63, right?

If we keep close to God, perform
his work well, he'll provide

what we need.

That's kind of ubiquitous
amongst all religions, is

they've got that in some form or
fashion.

SPEAKER_01: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And so whether it is
we're getting proven wrong and

changing our old ideas, or
whether it's Haley's dad showing

up in a cardinal, the truth in
my experiences, none of that

shit matters.

If I right, whether it's true or
not is irrelevant.

If I walk in the room dying of
alcoholism, smoking

uncontrollable amounts of crack,
and you guys are all wearing a

green hat, and you said, Hey,
dude, no, we're all staying

sober because of the green hat.

And I go, Well, you're uh
retarded.

Uh, and uh, but but am I gonna
argue that it's the hat, or am I

gonna see the group that's all
staying sober and just put that

goddamn hat on, dude?

SPEAKER_01: It's a willingness
to just change my mind.

Sandy used to say that all the
time.

AA is in three words.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Change my mind.

Change my mind.

That's it.

Very interesting.

So that being said, I think I do
want to I think I want to segue

that a little bit if I can,
because it's it's the same

conversation, but I'm gonna I'm
gonna let the let the veil down

a little bit and share a little
bit about what happened this

morning, um, because it's still
kind of in me emotionally.

And by the way, Hunter's my
sponsor.

Uh, and so we're just gonna have
a conversation about this.

And I I I won't get too too
detailed, but it was something

that kind of it my my reaction,
my behavior bothered me.

And uh, and if there's anything
that I've learned, it's that

that I can't I can't grow.

I don't grow when everything's
smooth sailing, I grow when I

make mistakes, and that's how
old ideas get changed, right?

And so here's what was going on.

Um, there was an event that
happened this morning.

Kind of in, you know, I've got a
lot of kids, and one of those

kids was running around flinging
milk on the floor.

He he's young.

And when I finally caught him,
uh I grabbed his milk and he

didn't let it go.

I was taking the milk from him
and he lifted up with it, and

then he fell to the ground and
he hit his he hit his little

nose on the ground, right?

It hurt him.

And and and I felt instantly
just, oh my god, awful.

Right.

And part of it was, I think my
desire to control the situation

because a lot of the time
mornings are uncontrollable.

Um, I think there are probably
other things that happened, and

that I got in the car and I, you
know, I called Hunter uh right

away.

And I can, but what I witnessed
was, you know, I'm not a small

guy, right?

I don't not, I'm sure people
listening know me in person, but

I'm not a small guy.

And obviously, you know, I have
a lot of girls um as daughters

and my wife, and and when
something like that happens, it

kind of like charges the energy
of the house.

And everyone knew it was an
accident, but nevertheless, it

was still an accident that that
dad caused, you know, and I I I

accepted responsibility for it
right away when it happened, but

I can still it's not shame
lingering.

If it was, I wouldn't be able to
talk to you about it.

It's not guilt lingering.

I think it's I think it's a
sadness that's lingering.

Um, and I think it's prompting
me to look in an area that maybe

I wouldn't generally look in
because my kids and my family

are my life.

Like they are the if I were to
tell you anything about myself,

I will always tell you about my
family because they're the most

important thing to me.

And I know that we all go
through like everyone I know

that's sober has had events big
or small that they go through.

And inevitably, if they you know
share truthfully about them,

right?

They can walk through that stuff
and and and grow from it as

opposed to it piling on the big
old bag of shit that is Austin,

you know, or the big old bag of
shit that is Hunter or whatever,

right?

And um, and so I just I I kind
of wanted to share that because

that was still lingering a
little bit with me.

Uh and I did a podcast before
this one, and I've got one right

after this.

And so, you know, my hope is a
problem shared is a problem

halved, like somebody said in
the meeting last night.

SPEAKER_01: So I think I think
we I think let's take this, uh,

you know, we'll treat this like
a conversation, right?

Uh I was grabbing coffee for
myself and uh my colleague this

morning when you called in and
had an attorney for the business

calling in at the same time.

And so it was kind of hectic.

You and I didn't really get a
whole lot of time, but you know,

just to to speak to you and the
listeners that are hopefully

running this by a sponsor to get
you know debriefed, if you will.

Uh, this is by no means, shape,
or form is uh, you know, blanket

sponsorly and and direction, uh,
but between you and I, right?

You know, now that that's aside
for the listeners.

My my advice, or well, where I
want to go with this is that

this is this is a beautiful
example between what we just

what we identify in four and
what we identify in eight.

You are clear, clear on your
your faults, your part, your

your actions.

Um, the book uses harms, uh,
harms and faults.

Your fault is in four.

Our our harm is in eight.

What you did was you you tried
to grab the milk so you didn't

have to clean up the freaking
house and and uh and and and you

you you had to use some force to
get it out of his hand.

The harm that was caused was
that he fell to the floor and

hit his nose after you had
grabbed the milk and turned your

back.

Remember you telling me earlier,
you you weren't even aware that

you that he hit his nose until
you saw him crying and blood

coming down his beak.

And I think that you know,
obviously the situation sucks,

but what a beautiful
description, metaphor to what it

is that we're really taking a
look at in our in our actions.

What I do to cause harm, right,
is is inventoried in four.

How it affected them and
actually caused harm is

identified in eight.

Those are two totally separate
exercises.

What I did wrong, how it
affected them.

And if I stop at just what I did
wrong, I I miss, I miss what

really matters.

I don't an amends is not coming
going to somebody and saying,

This is what I did.

Our book is almost our book is
almost clear on what that we're

not to do that.

We don't go and make an amends
and say, hey, this is what I did

that that that was wrong.

You know, let me detail you what
how I screwed up.

That's not what we do.

What we do is, hey, I have
inventory with a sponsor and

with God what I did wrong.

And what I am clear on is that
this caused you harm in this

way, and um, and then I make an
amends for the harm caused.

Uh you know what I'm saying?

Like, so as it relates to this,
right?

That was more for the listeners,
just to to to share my

experience and point of view on
on our program.

Um, you already know this
because I sponsor you, but I'm

I'm curious as to the not shame
part, not this or that part, but

uh let's take an honest look at
what is really going on here.

What what it what is affecting
you is not that his nose is

bloody.

What's affecting you is that in
your innocence, you caused

somebody harm.

And watching the footwork and
the work that you've put in over

the last few years, dude, you're
not a guy that hurts people,

especially family.

So I think what really shook you
is that even the most sincere

desire to be helpful and
protective still caused harm.

I think there's something to
that.

I think there's some depth there
that's available for us to dig a

little bit into and and and and
and even maybe you know, cut you

some slack.

Um I I know in my life, if I
were to put myself in your

shoes, I wouldn't be
experiencing fear.

Um, fear of not being trusted by
my wife because she's upset

because she sees a kid with a
bloody nose, right?

Um, fear of not being trusted by
my wife to protect, parent, and

nurture our children.

I would experience, and that's
unconscious.

That just happens.

I have got this gift of just we
as human beings, you were

talking about the brain earlier.

We just go there.

And a lot of the time we're not
even conscious that that's

that's an experience that we're
having.

Um, I would, I would have
experienced a fear, I would have

experienced some regret, I would
have experienced a lot of

concern of confusion rather.

How did how did you get a bloody
nose?

You know, immediately I would go
to this idea that I need to

defend something because my
motives were pure, my intentions

were were were were clean,
clear, and and somehow still

affected somebody in a way that
I certainly don't want to affect

them.

And and so um I I would I would
like to hear your thoughts if we

were to even pull this apart and
really take a look at at the

columns.

What do you really find?

What do you find?

SPEAKER_00: Well, well, I'll
tell you what's coming up as

you're talking, in that I I
remember being a kid and and

actually an adult as well.

And in the midst of you know,
self-centeredness, I'm not even

considering other people.

And so I always had this belief
in the back of my head that it

was almost like I was dancing
with other people and I kept

stepping on their toes, but all
I really wanted to do was dance.

I didn't mean to step on their
toes, but the truth was what was

happening is I was just not
considering others.

That was at the end of the day,
that was what was happening in

self-centeredness.

That's not really what's
happening today necessarily, but

in the midst of like, let's take
a morning, for example.

And for anyone listening, I have
five kids.

Two of them are actually not
there, though.

So there was only three uh my
15-year-old, my one-year-old, my

three-year-old.

And mornings are a little bit
hectic.

And I, if I'm looking at my own
self-centered part, it's that I

desired it to be more peaceful
this morning, um, for my sake,

because I wanted a peaceful
morning.

I wanted to be able to get out
of the house on time, I wanted,

you know, whatever.

Um, and so I think if I were to
really break that down, where

where I was selfish is I wanted
to control the situation because

I wanted to play God and make
sure that it was peaceful

instead of um instead of just
letting things happen the way

that I know they happen with
kids.

What I should have done.

SPEAKER_01: Well, hold on, stay
there for just a sec.

How you were selfish, or you you
just identify where where you

were selfish.

How are you self-seeking in
that?

SPEAKER_00: Well, define where
when you say self-seeking, what

do you mean?

So that I I have my own
definition and we can merge

them.

SPEAKER_01: I'll let you
interpret it into your own

definition with with what make
what makes sense for me.

Selfish is how I act when I show
up to the party with a pocket

full of cocaine.

Self-seeking is how I act when I
show up with empty pockets.

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, I got
you.

It's I'm a that's a great way of
putting it.

My what I've always rolled with
with self-seeking is an action I

take based on some form of fear
that is beneficial to me and me

alone, right?

That's would be my definition.

Yeah, and so I'm placing
expectations on my environment.

SPEAKER_01: Not how I like when
I do things, I don't do things

selfishly, I don't do to you um
like my like kids.

My sponsor says, kids don't do
uh thing the things that they do

to you, they do the things that
they do with no thought of you.

That that is selfish to the
core.

I'm not even capable of thinking
about how it may or may not

affect you.

SPEAKER_00: Well, the children
aren't their prefrontal cortex

is not developed in any way, and
so I mean ours isn't either.

Well, it is, unless you're under
25.

But so, all right.

So that the selfish side, we
talked about that.

The self-seeking side, my
actions were I was going to

control the situation to get the
result that I thought we should

have.

Um, the fear I think underlying
that.

Well, let's let we'll talk about
dishonesty here.

I think that the dishonest
thoughts, which is really what

was going on, is um I'm not
gonna be yeah, I'm not gonna be

okay with a crazy morning.

Um, if I don't do something,
it's all gonna get out of

control.

Here, here's another one.

If he slings milk on that couch,
Haley's gonna lose her mind.

Like these are you know, these
are all unconscious, right?

But looking in retrospect, I can
see how they might have

occurred.

Um but the fear in the midst of
it, like the feeling I had when

it happened was so far detached
from the way that I view myself

in reality.

It was like, whoa, what just
happened here?

You know, I haven't had that
experience ever.

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: So I know this is
kind of a we place ourselves in

positions to be hurt, you know,
uh well intended, clean motives,

and and and somehow my my
ability to manage my my life and

those around me that that
affects me, but it's still

managing my life.

It controlling people that are
in close proximity to me is is

an effort to control my life.

And a lot of people detach the
two.

Well, but it it is the same,
it's driven from the same place.

And and um, you know, like you,
whether my kids are running

around with flinging milk all
over the place, it's there there

is something in me that says,
hey, you need to handle this.

They're not acting in a way that
that is is appropriate.

And uh, and because I see it, I
just assume responsibility for

fixing it.

Um that's a delusion.

That's a delusion in and of
itself that that I am I am

required to address this.

You know, and also for the
listeners, man, what a what a

beautiful breakdown of the
directions in our book, and our

in our literature, word for
word.

Where do where were we selfish?

Self-seeking, dishonest, afraid.

And and for for those that that
aren't in our sponsorship family

or may have picked up on it, but
delusion is has three parts.

How was what did I what did I
say that was completely false?

What did I not say that should
have been said, and and and and

led people to believe that they
had all the information there

was to have, withholding
information intentionally.

And then last the delusions that
I tell myself.

What is the story I tell myself
based on no other facts uh or

reality?

And and so those three elements
of of of dishonesty are are

critical.

And in it out of those those
those things, I I am often left

with nothing but the truth about
about how I'm affected, which is

the fear.

What am I afraid of?

How is it come back to me?

What am I not gonna get, or what
am I gonna lose?

Um, so yeah, for the for any of
the listeners, man, that's

that's that's gold.

You wanna you want to be the
least disturbed person in the

room, be the most proficient at
taking a look at those areas of

of how you're experiencing your
life.

And you will be the least
disturbed person in every room

you walk in.

SPEAKER_00: You know, what's
interesting is is this is a you

know, it was obvious to me that
other people were affected by

this, but there are a lot of
times when people are affected

my by my behavior that I don't
have really any knowledge of,

right?

Like I try and be, you know,
like when we walk into suspects,

right?

I try and be, you know, a there
you are person.

Oh my god, I'm so excited to see
you to everyone that I see.

Right.

Because I hope to affect them in
that way.

But I I know that like if I get,
for instance, not to pivot, but

I think it's in the same vein.

If I get, you know, I have a lot
of things going on at work,

right?

I have two businesses, three,
the book, I'm doing a lot of

podcasting.

Like, it's just it's just crazy.

And it's easy for me to get
wrapped up in the productivity

of that and look at my phone
instead of focusing on my little

baby girl, like my one-year-old,
for example, who doesn't have

any of that context.

She's just sitting there and
wanting to sing Taylor Swift or,

you know, something adorable.

When I know that simply the act
of me looking at my phone will

do something to the nervous
system of a child because

they're not getting the
attention that that they rightly

deserve as kids.

It actually causes, I don't know
where the hell I read this, but

I read it somewhere.

It causes like a 2.5x rate of
acting out and screaming and and

various different things.

That wasn't the case of what
happened this morning.

Nobody was looking at their
phone.

Um, but I can miss so easily,
you know, the beauty that's all

around me in the pursuit of
productivity or to satisfy, you

know, maybe some old ideas that
I have, that I, as the man of of

the family, am required to
provide.

And if I do not provide in a way
that is, you know, sufficient, I

haven't met my requirements as a
man.

That's an old idea that I had
from childhood that I was given.

All sorts of things like that
that can that can pop up.

And so it's interesting to think
that we're all operating on this

level where we can see, heal, or
hear, you know, feel, taste, and

touch.

Um, and we're interacting with
one another.

But beneath that is just a
litany of of various things that

are motivating everybody.

And uh, you know, I just don't
always know how my behavior is

gonna affect somebody else.

So it's a good reminder.

And things like this.

And I'm I'll be honest with you,
I'm a little afraid to publish

this episode, but I'm gonna do
it because I know that it, you

know, it gives other people
permission not to be perfect.

Um, but I know that you know, I
know that my behavior affects

other people, and uh anyhow, I'm
glad it was what's the fear in

publishing this?

It's not it's not a real it's
not a see you're not real fear

that I wouldn't have brought it
up.

No, not at all.

I don't think it's not a real
fear of publishing it, it's just

like uh it was kind of like the
nervousness of publishing my

book.

It was like, okay, we've got
some truth happening here.

Um, but yeah, it if I've learned
anything, it's that it's that

the truth is the connector.

That's that's where in fact I
just told a guy last night, I

said, dude, don't bring where
you're crushing the game to the

table.

That's not where you're gonna
connect with people.

Uh it's right, you know what I
mean?

SPEAKER_01: Brothers and our
defects, not our virtues, man.

SPEAKER_00: Right, dude.

SPEAKER_01: I have I have I have
earned more more more friends,

more allies, more I have I've
received more love and all the

good stuff that I'm I selfishly
want out of a relationship by

sharing my brokenness.

Yeah, it's been that way.

Since day one.

Dude, find me somewhere else.

Find me another room in the
world where you can go get a

standing ovation for coming for
showing up for your first time

or you know, and and and saying,
I've ruined everything I've ever

tried to touch, you know?

Yeah.

You don't get that at the PTA
meeting, man.

The HOA meeting is not looking
for somebody to come in there

and spill their guts and be
like, God man, I'm so glad that

guy's my neighbor, you know?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah.

No shit.

SPEAKER_01: You know, you hang
out with us and come in there.

Uh oh, dude.

You come in there and hang out
with us, the uglier, the uglier

it is, the the more we like it.

SPEAKER_00: Um you know, but
that's not an excuse to go screw

it up.

But it is there's intimacy built
in vulnerability.

And there's no vulnerability in
me listing all of my accolades

to you constantly.

There just isn't.

SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, but but
that's that's why we that's why

we tell our stories.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

But I will tell you, even in my
story, the the things I'm doing

real time that are off the beam
are where the juice is.

It's you know, like without
calling him out, I'm hoping

he'll come on the show.

But I remember when I was
getting on a rehab and coming

back, we had a member of our
group that was struggling with,

you know, some gambling stuff.

And he was sharing it openly in
the meeting.

Every meeting, I saw it, and he
had a lot of years sober, and uh

and it it quietly gave me
permission to do the same thing,

and I think that permission is
the feeling of I'm not alone, I

don't have to put on a show, I
can just be who I am, as

imperfect as that is, and that's
gonna be okay here because we

grow from it, you know.

So, dude, good conversation.

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, this was
this was good, man.

It was a nice redemption from my
last one.

I was too wrapped up in my head
about saying what was uh

appropriate for publication with
respects to the traditions, and

probably came in a little too
long-winded and soft about what

was what was real.

SPEAKER_00: I you know, I didn't
get that feeling, and I didn't

see anyone else that had that
feeling either.

So, you know.

SPEAKER_01: Oh well, uh hey,
look, it won't be the first or

last time.

My uh my my self, my my my my uh
ideas and beliefs are are wrong.

Self uh what does it say?

Uh self-assessment is is often
often inadequate.

SPEAKER_00: A solitary
self-appraisal is insufficient.

Yeah, dude.

All right.

Well, we're gonna get the hell
out of here.

Hey, if you listen to this on
Spotify, Apple Podcasts, do me a

favor, leave a review, click the
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channel.

We'd appreciate it.

Leave a comment, uh, tell us
what you think about the show,

and we are gonna get the hell
out of here.

Thanks for tuning in, guys.

Bye bye.

SPEAKER_01: See you bye.